FP

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I think we are in rats' alley
Where the dead men lost their bones.

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Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 8:21 am on July 17, 2008

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No matter how long it lives and how old it grows, a cockroach will never discover a cure for cancer, find a way to reverse global warming, end world hunger or really do much besides scurry and carry disease. If left to nature, a fetus will grow and develop and has the potential to do all of those things and still have time to make a perfect grilled cheese sandwich at the end of the day.  

Potential is the difference here.

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That baby could also grow up to be Hitler. Or a homeless deranged drug addict. Or autistic. It doesn't really matter either way because if you just nip it in the bud we'll be sure it won't grow into anything at all.

Edit: and actually, if left to nature, the baby would die hours after its born, unless it's cared for by the mother. Neglecting it pre or post partum would produce the same result.

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The point is that whether the fetus grows into Hitler or grows into Mother Theresa, it still has the potential to do good. Say what you will about babies growing up to be evil or rapists or whatever you please, but the fact remains that the potential for good is what separates aborting a fetus from stepping on a cockroach.

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Let yourself be enchanted,
You just might break through
To ever ever after

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Ever kill a scorpion? Cockroach? I don't see how it's any different than abortion.

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One might think that there is an inherent difference in that what one aborts is the same species as the aborter.

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So why is it so wrong to abort an undeveloped baby? After all, just as a bug, it's defenseless.

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These two sentences, with their powers combined, do not make Captain Planet. They make an implied assertion that something which is defenseless is able to be rightly killed by virtue of its inability to protect itself.

Do you operate in a world where the rightness or wrongness of something is contingent on how easy it is, or does that only apply to stomping bugs and aborting fetuses?

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Just because a baby is one of our own does not mean we must "protect" it. After all, I don't see many people protecting bugs.

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Let me outline what you just said for you.

ASSERTION: Just because a baby is one of our own does not mean we must "protect" it.

SUPPORT FOR ASSERTION: I don't see many people protecting bugs (which aren't one of our own and therefore this in no way applies to the initial assertion that was made)

Parenthetical notation mine, of course.

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Discuss...

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discussed.

Not a very well-phrased OP to start things off.

Post edited at 11:19 am on July 17, 2008 by TheOtherHorseman

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"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

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Quote: from Micus at 1:11 pm on July 17, 2008

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Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 8:21 am on July 17, 2008

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No matter how long it lives and how old it grows, a cockroach will never discover a cure for cancer, find a way to reverse global warming, end world hunger or really do much besides scurry and carry disease. If left to nature, a fetus will grow and develop and has the potential to do all of those things and still have time to make a perfect grilled cheese sandwich at the end of the day.  

Potential is the difference here.

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That baby could also grow up to be Hitler. Or a homeless deranged drug addict. Or autistic. It doesn't really matter either way because if you just nip it in the bud we'll be sure it won't grow into anything at all.

Edit: and actually, if left to nature, the baby would die hours after its born, unless it's cared for by the mother. Neglecting it pre or post partum would produce the same result.

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The point is that whether the fetus grows into Hitler or grows into Mother Theresa, it still has the potential to do good. Say what you will about babies growing up to be evil or rapists or whatever you please, but the fact remains that the potential for good is what separates aborting a fetus from stepping on a cockroach.

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Oh, that doesn't mean shit.

Edit: oh, and TOH, we do protect bugs. Just ones that are in danger of becoming extinct.

Post edited at 11:50 am on July 17, 2008 by Micus

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Educators destroy your brain,
but you don't know, so why care?
Fagotto

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It doesn't mean shit to you. It means a great deal to other people. Perhaps you shouldn't impose your own values on others.

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I'm not imposing anything, I'm just talking shit.

Besides, the fetus won't be upset. It doesn't know whats going on anyways.

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Educators destroy your brain,
but you don't know, so why care?
Fagotto

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Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 3:33 pm on July 17, 2008

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It doesn't mean shit to you. It means a great deal to other people. Perhaps you shouldn't impose your own values on others.

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I'm not imposing anything, I'm just talking shit.

Besides, the fetus won't be upset. It doesn't know whats going on anyways.

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*shrug* I'm not talking about how the fetus feels about it. I'm just pointing out that a great many people care about the potential in a fetus.

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Let yourself be enchanted,
You just might break through
To ever ever after

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*shrug* I'm not talking about how the fetus feels about it. I'm just pointing out that a great many people care about the potential in a fetus.

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There's equally good and bad potential in each fetus. They cancel each other out.

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Educators destroy your brain,
but you don't know, so why care?
Fagotto

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Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 4:47 pm on July 17, 2008

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*shrug* I'm not talking about how the fetus feels about it. I'm just pointing out that a great many people care about the potential in a fetus.

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There's equally good and bad potential in each fetus. They cancel each other out.

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Again, you think that way; not everyone does. Personally, I've found that looking at the world realistically and based on my own experiences, while the potential may be equal, the likelihood of goodness is higher.

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Let yourself be enchanted,
You just might break through
To ever ever after

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Quote: from Micus at 8:01 pm on July 17, 2008

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Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 4:47 pm on July 17, 2008

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*shrug* I'm not talking about how the fetus feels about it. I'm just pointing out that a great many people care about the potential in a fetus.

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 There's equally good and bad potential in each fetus. They cancel each other out.

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Again, you think that way; not everyone does. Personally, I've found that looking at the world realistically and based on my own experiences, while the potential may be equal, the likelihood of goodness is higher.

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Funny... With all the humans have done for this planet. We are the ones destroying it. How are we any good?

Before you choose to abort a baby you better think damn hard about how that baby's life might be like if you chose not to abort. You better burn that memory into your mind because in the end it is killing someone. It is just killing them before they are known by other people or have a certificate saying they were alive.

I'm not telling you what you should choose.  I'm telling you to think of yourself not being born before you take that away from someone else.

Post edited at 9:08 pm on July 17, 2008 by Tiroth

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Now the old king is dead
Long live the king.

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Funny... With all the humans have done for this planet. We are the ones destroying it. How are we any good?

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And we're also the ones trying to fix it. Tell me, have you ever seen a lion say he's going to cut back on eating zebras because they're becoming scarce in the area where he's hunting, or a cockroach being more careful about where he skitters because he's making a mess?

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Let yourself be enchanted,
You just might break through
To ever ever after

The fetus may be defenseless, but it cannot feel pain at such early stages. Nor is it even conscious.. At all.

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Genetics is fate. Change our genes, achieve free will.